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As the founder of the long-standing LavaCon conference and the principal at a technical content staffing agency, Jack Molisani gets a deeply informed view of the world of technical communication.
While he sees the opportunities that generative AI presents, he raises several concerns for technical content strategy practitioners, among them the inaccuracy of generative AI content and the inability of AI tools to comprehend subtle human communication clues.
We talked about:
- his work as the Executive Director of the LavaCon Content Strategy Conference and at ProSpring Staffing, a technical communication job agency
- how a change in the LinkedIn messaging interface inspired him to spend more time at in-person events
- his observation that many product features that are promoted as “AI” are actually capabilities that have been around for years
- his concerns about the ability to identify and vet the sources that AI tools cite
- his assessment of the job prospects for technical communicators in 2024
- his exasperation with the decline in quality of applicant tracking systems (ATS)
- some of the tasks in technical communication that AI can help with
- the inability of AI tools to account for subtle human communication dynamics like facial expressions
- how using AI writing tools can misrepresent your own writing ability
- how a speed networking event that troubled introverts at a prior LavaCon led to the introduction of calming therapy animals at the event, including a therapy llama
Jack’s bio
Jack Molisani is the President of ProSpring Staffing, an employment agency specializing in content professionals (both contract and perm).
He’s the author of Be The Captain of Your Career: A New Approach to Career Planning and Advancement, which hit #5 on Amazon’s Career and Resume Best Seller list. The first printing is sold out. Watch for a soon-to-be-released second edition.
Jack also produces The LavaCon Conference on Content Strategy, which contains an AI track. The 2024 conference is 27–30 October in Portland, Oregon. Register using referral code LSPODCAST for $200 off in-person tuition.
Connect with Jack online
- LavaCon content strategy conference
- Prospring Staffing
Video
Here’s the video version of our conversation:
Podcast intro transcript
This is the Content and AI podcast, episode number 30. The rise of generative AI affects every type of content practice, including the venerable institution of technical communication. Jack Molisani runs both a tech comms staffing agency and the annual LavaCon content strategy conference, which he’s organized for more than 20 years. Jack brings a deeply informed perspective to the conversation around the introduction of AI into content practice, especially its impact on employment prospects for technical communicators.
Interview transcript
Larry:
Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode number 30 of the Content and AI Podcast. I’m really excited today to welcome to the show Jack Molisani. Jack is a legend in the textbook, communication, and technical content strategy world. He’s the executive director of the LavaCon Content Strategy Conference. He also runs a staffing agency called ProSpring Staffing. Welcome, Jack. Tell the folks a little bit more about what you’re up to these days.
Jack:
Wow, okay. As you said, I’m running around two spheres. One is producing the LavaCon Conference in content strategy. The other one is running a staffing agency for technical writers and other content professionals. Although we also have a division that does engineers, and there’s some crossover there.
What’s interesting, and it’s almost a side note but since you asked what I’ve been up to, is I’ve discovered that it’s almost impossible for me to land new staffing clients over the internet anymore.
Larry:
Interesting. What’s going on there?
Jack:
It used to be that someone would post a job on LinkedIn, and I’d wait two weeks. If it’s still there I said, “Hey, could you use some help finding someone?” And they’ll tell me yes or no.
Jack:
Well, a couple things happened. One is LinkedIn bifurcated your message inbox. It now has two labels, focused and other. It didn’t announce this. Suddenly, all my responses were going to other and I thought I had an empty inbox. Where once I discovered this other tab, had people responding to me for two years saying, “Yes, we need help.”
Larry:
Oh, God.
Jack:
By then, they don’t need help anymore. Two, LinkedIn opened an API so people could use tools to email thousands of people at a time. Suddenly, mine and every other inbox is just filled with spam. Trying to weed all through that to find the real communication piece. And then, they added a third option on their reply screen, a pre-populated answer that says, “Thanks, we’re not interested. Thanks, call me. Thanks, but not interested,” and delete without responding.
Larry:
Oh.
Jack:
Now managers just go out and delete, delete, delete, delete, delete, delete. Not even saying, “No, I’m good,” or, “Yes, please.”
Jack:
I have discovered that I’m going old school and meeting people in-person. I’ve been going to trade shows. I just got back from a software engineering trade show yesterday. It’s going to come back to that when we talk about AI in a second. And a manufacturing trade show two weeks ago. Two weeks from now, I’m going to a semiconductor trade show, just to go around to talk to people in-person. Going, “Hi, I’m Jack Molisani. Here’s my card. If you don’t need me now, maybe you’ll need me in the future.” I’m guessing people who have their own technical writing services or are independent contractors are like that.
Jack:
The other thing I’ve seen is now, on LinkedIn, where people post a job, it now tells you how many people have applied for that job. So within a half-hour, it says 100 people applied for this job already. You go, “Really?” A friend of mine said, “No. What really that means is 100 people clicked on the job to read it. They didn’t necessarily apply for it.”
Larry:
Interesting.
Jack:
I just don’t trust anything I read anymore.
Larry:
Yeah.
Jack:
We’ve come to that point. They said it was coming, it’s here.
Larry:
The reason I wanted to have you on this podcast specifically is because this is the new one, about AI. When we first talked, we were talking about your journey into AI. But I’m going to just jump way ahead. I think my prediction is that one of the outcomes of this is going to be a return to human connection. Here you are, exhibiting it already, going out to conferences. Thanks for validating my prediction.
Larry:
I’m assuming you can’t ignore AI in your line of work. Both just the technical communication part of it, the programming for LavaCon. I’m assuming it’s invaded your life like everyone else. Is that a safe assumption?
Jack:
We do have a track. Last year’s LavaCon, when everyone was talking about LavaCon, it was the main theme of the conference. I observed a trend, if I may.
What was it? Four years ago, everyone going, “Chatbots! Chatbots. The future of tech comm is chatbots.” Next year, crickets. Year after that, “Oh my God, VR, the Metaverse. Everyone’s going to be in the Metaverse.” Next year, crickets. Now we’re going, “AI! AI! AI!” I’m going, “Hm.”
Jack:
I don’t think we’re going to get quite to cricket level on AI, but I already know that, in my conference, that it’s not the main focus this year. We have an AI track, yeah. Sure. Because you got to know what’s coming, what’s available, what you can and can’t do with it. But we’re going back to the basics, treating content as a business asset that you can use to reduce costs or generate revenue. Back to basics.
Larry:
Yeah. That came up. I just dropped an episode of the other podcast, Content Strategy Insights yesterday, with a woman at Albert Heijn, the big grocery chain here in the Netherlands. One of her big accomplishments there was getting the enterprise to view content as an asset. I said, “Wow. How did you do that?” I love that that’s a focus of yours as well.
Larry:
But, tell me. You’re obviously not a rah-rah person. Tell me how you see AI fitting into tech comms and tech content strategy. What do you think? There are some things that are proving to be useful to people, but I gather that you perceive a lot of hype as well.
Jack:
Yes. More of the latter, less of the former. Or it’s just not quite here yet.
A couple stories on this. I can see a perfect application of AI in tech comm. Take a company like Boeing, who has 10 million pages of documentation in their content management system. Scan that whole dataset, find out how many of those pages are sufficiently similar that we can combine them, and reuse it, and maintain only one source. Brilliant use of AI.
Jack:
Or take your legacy documentation. If it’s structured using headings, break each heading into a separate topic. Automatically add, populate the meta tags. I’m assuming your audience knows what meta tags are. Then repost that as chunked, individual content pieces. Brilliant use, I can see that.
Jack:
What I’m seeing now, however, is every single tool vendor in every single industry or trade show I’ve gone to is like, “Our tool is AI enabled.” One of them was a content management system. I was talking with one of their people. I said, “Hey, that’s great. Show me something in your tool that’s AI.” She goes, “If you create a new topic, we will pre-populate the XML for you.” I said, “Hmm. First of all, that’s called a wizard and we’ve had them for decades. What about your tool is artificial intelligence?” She couldn’t tell me. She said, “Oh, let me get back to the developer.” True story. Absolutely true story.
Larry:
Interesting.
Jack:
I think what’s happening is a lot of these tools, they want to be seen as up-to-date and, “We’re just as AI as they are.” We’re slapping AI on this, and we’re using some sort of tool behind it, or we’re using voice recognition. Is it really AI? I don’t know.
Jack:
I’m going to get back to another tool vendor in a second. I mentioned I was just at a trade show, a software engineering trade show yesterday. Got a demo from a vendor who had a mortgage application tracking system that was AI enabled. I went, “Great. Show me what it can do.” He goes, “Watch this.” They used a microphone, instead of just typing the command, and going, “List out every dollar figure in this contract.” It went, “Initial application, $20,000. Pre-approval, $10,000. Monthly insurance payment, $20.” It just listed a bunch of things. He just beamed with pride. I’m thinking to myself, “Okay, me degree isn’t in computer engineering. I haven’t coded in decades. I could write a Visual Basic macro that could do that same thing, and I could probably write that in five minutes.” Again it’s useful, but is it AI?
Jack:
Okay. I thought I’d mentioned a third. One of the front end editor tools for a CMS, and that’s as specific as I’m going to get on this. I was asserting that we, so many times, tech writers … Not content strategists as a whole. Let’s drop it down into the actual individual contributor for a moment. We document things that don’t exist yet. I said, “What if I’m documenting an insulin pump?” He goes, “Let’s do.” He went out and used ChatGPT, and gave me a first draft of a user guide for an insulin pump. Then came up with six steps. “Make sure you sterilize the thing first. Make sure you draw the proper dosage.” It looked fairly good. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe there’s a use for this. Then I asked, “Where did it get that?” He goes, “I don’t know. That’s what AIs do, they go out and they read everything, and they give you the best answer.”
Jack:
Three, three comments. Steer me back if I don’t get to all three. One of my organizations I belong to offered a webinar, it was on job hunting. Mind you, I own a staffing agency, I’ve been in the business for 25 years. Survived two recessions, a Dot Com crash, and a pandemic. It was billed as, “You only have so many seconds to be noticed. You need to have a resume that’s based on infographics. It has to have all these graphics and infographics.” I’m going, “No, no. Just no.” I know that applicant tracking systems can’t read graphics. I tell people to stop using graphics. Now here is someone telling you to really use graphics. All right.
Jack:
Here’s what I started doing, I learned to do this decades … If your readers come away with one thing, it’s this. Who is the source of the information you’re getting? Vet the source. Just because someone says, “Buy XYZ stock tomorrow,” who’s telling you that, your mother? I said, “All right, I am totally willing to be wrong. I’m usually not, but I’m willing to.” I called up his LinkedIn profile, the person teaching this workshop, because maybe they’re an HR manager that’s been doing this longer than I have and may have learned something that I didn’t. Come to find out, he’s an infographic consultant trying to teach people, to sell people to use his services to create infographics. He’s not a headhunting, he’s not a hiring manager.
Jack:
As a source of reputable, actionable, let’s use actionable instead of reputable, advice, he’s a horrible source of getting actionable advice from. That’s how I feel about generative AI. I’m not going to act on that unless I know who it came from. There are tools out there now, and I’ve started using one. I was going to name one that came up, it’s already slipped out of memory, that it shows you the reference from which it drew that statement.
Larry:
Yeah, Perplexity does that.
Jack:
Perplexity.
Larry:
Yeah.
Jack:
Why the hell did they use Perplexity? It should be Simplicity, not Perplexity. Who came up with that name?
Larry:
That’s a great question. I love that. Yeah. But that’s interesting. That does give the ability to follow a source. That indicates that there’s something beyond just the LLM conversational agent going on there. That they somehow have done some kind of RAG or something else, to cite sources. Just that notion, you’re right, that’s just how AI works. It’s a predictive, stochastic mechanism that looks at a bunch of stuff.
Larry:
But, back to what you were saying. One of the things that comes up all the time is that AI is good at creativity. But you can’t be creative about how to operate an insulin pump.
Jack:
Right!
Larry:
Yeah. It seems like there are things … So much of tech comm writing, like you mentioned earlier metadata tagging, people hate that. It’s like, “Oh, there’s a last thing. Hey, now go tag it.” Have you seen applications like AI stuff, like in CMSs or in authoring systems, that can help with that kind of stuff? That’s what I’ve seen in other examples, it’s the tedious stuff that humans hate that AIs are often good at.
Jack:
Yeah.
Larry:
Have you found some of that?
Jack:
Yeah. For example, if you’re documenting software, I believe the tool is called Scribe, Scriber. I’d have to look it up. It’ll basically, as you’re doing a demo, it’s writing down what you’re doing. Enter your name in the name field, do this. It’ll then do a screen capture for you of the screen you’re working on. If you then have to choose animal, vegetable, or mineral. You said, “Okay, let’s do animal first.” It will then go, “We’re doing animal first,” and puts a heading in. It’s like a scribe.
Larry:
Interesting.
Jack:
It’s taking screenshots. Yeah, that’s good. Harmless. Again, it’s not generating content, it’s grabbing content that you’re generating. Perfect application.
Larry:
Yeah.
Jack:
I find the little predictive words annoying. Like, “I’m going to go,” and it says, “To the store.” No, just turn that off. I’ll write what I want to write, thank you. Really, hitting tab to save two characters of typing does not save me a lot of time. Yes, there are tools out there to populate meta tags for me.
Jack:
Here’s a good one, that you may not have thought of. Back when we were still doing documentation, one of the poorest things people do is indexes. Indexes and synonyms. I’ll give you my classic horror story, and then the solution to the horror story. This is back in the day when we were using Corel Draw. I was working on a database documentation, and I wanted to draw a cylinder to show it’s a database, because at the time we didn’t have libraries of icons like we do now. I wanted to have it shaded, to show it was round, a cylinder. Looked in the index, nothing under shading. I looked under shadows, nothing. The help system was small enough at the time, that I just hit the first thing in the online help, and I just hit the next button until I found what I was looking for because contextual help didn’t help at all.
Jack:
Finally, found the topic I was looking for. It was called a “graduated fill.” Okay. Clearly, the engineer came up with that name. Clearly, it’s not defined anywhere, nor was it in the index. Shadow wasn’t in the index. Shadowing wasn’t in the index. Circular. Anything I thought of as a gerund, creating, shading, were gone. Clearly, whoever did that did not do very good indexing. But AI could look at all of the verbs possible in this documentation, write the index for you, including synonyms, other words someone else might use, to look up that action. Yay! Now, I don’t have to spend two weeks indexing a 500-page manual, not that we’re using pages anymore. 500 topic system, let’s go with. Let the AI generate the index, and then use the AI ability to know what other word would someone use. We’re not just looking for the word graduated fill, I could look up shadow and have the topic still come up.
Larry:
Right. Yeah, exactly that. Because these words are just hovering in vector space, and those are words that are close to each other. They can go, “Hey, did you mean?” I’m picturing Clippy, all of a sudden. Sorry.
Larry:
Hey, I wanted to ask you, too. I want to make sure we get to this, to shift gears just a little bit here. At least in part of the content world right now, there’s a lot of anxiety about jobs and job hunting. You’ve talked a little bit about some of the lessons you have observed about ATSs and stuff like that. But what are the job prospects for technical communicators right now? How’s that looking?
Jack:
Great. Really good. There is no lack of jobs out there. However, all my clients have stopped using me because one, they’re on a hiring freeze until they see what happens in November. “We’re not hiring. We’re not hiring. We’re going to have a great 2025. But until the end of this year, we’re just trying to wait and see.”That said, every day, I see people on LinkedIn, “I started a new job, I started a new job.” Again, don’t apply through jobs through links. Find somebody in that company, and apply that one.
Do you remember which show we did on applicant tracking systems? Could we put a link to that in the liner notes?
Larry:
Oh, yeah. I’ll link back to that because that was about two years ago on the Content Strategy Insights Podcast. Yeah. You gave a good overview of ATS, applicant tracking systems, how they work. How to hack them, I guess.
Jack:
Yeah.
Larry:
Yeah.
Jack:
Yeah, let’s link back to that.
Larry:
Do they still work the same?
Jack:
They’re worse.
Larry:
Okay.
Jack:
They’ve actually gotten worse. Now not only are they comparing the requirements against your resume, they’re not actually comparing the job description to your resume to see if the words in the job description are in your resume as well. Now your resume, to get past the ATS, not only has to mention the requirements, you have to work in the job descriptions as well.
Jack:
The classic example I use is a friend of mine, who is a UX/UI developer, trying to get a job and wasn’t getting hired because her resume said UI/UX developer. She was applying for a UX/UI developer and the ATS said, “That doesn’t match.”
Larry:
Wow.
Jack:
Right.
Larry:
Yeah.
Jack:
I’ll make one quick point, then get back to your question about tech comm. The third thing I wanted to point out about using generative AI to write stuff is if you ask it a question, it’ll give you an answer. Where there are many things where there’s two schools of thought. Let’s say how long should a resume be? One pages, two pages. I say a resume should be long enough to show that you match what the reader is looking for. But you ask generative AI, “How long should a resume be?” It says, “One page.” It doesn’t say why. It doesn’t say, “Well, some people say one page, some people say two pages. Here are the advantages of each.”
Jack:
Now if I put in the prompt, “Give the top two reasons people say about how long a resume should be and why,” well then I would get the answer I was looking for. But most people who are not used to writing prompts will just, “How long should a resume …” the new meta. “Ask me anything.” Oh, how long should a resume be? That’s insufficient data to get the answer you really want, which is give me the top two most popular answers and why.
Larry:
Yeah. You’re reminding me that a lot of the advice you’ve given today is just good old-fashioned critical thinking, and thinking things through, like consider the source, and understand the systems you’re interacting with.
Larry:
I’m just wondering, one of the crucial things with AI is having enough understanding of them to understand … It seems like it adds just a little twist to all these things you’re talking about and applying that. Especially the sourcing part of it. You mentioned that a couple of times.
Jack:
Yeah.
Larry:
I guess, is that coming up in the day-to-day work for technical communication folks? Are you hearing from your clients on both sides anything about are the jobs changing much because of AI?
Jack:
No, they’re not. They’re changing a little. I’ll give you a few examples.
Jack:
One of my speakers, who’s the head of content strategy from JPMorgan Chase, will write an article. Then give it to the AI and said, “Rewrite this as a CFO would want to read it, or the words they would want to see. Rewrite this as a business analyst would want to read it. Or rewrite this as a consumer would want to read it.” The consumer version, they would define a lot more of the terms, a CFO would already know what those is. Brilliant use of AI.
Jack:
Some of the authoring tools I’ve seen. If you have a style guide, it will automatically create a draft layout of the document for you. It’ll go, “Heading one title, heading one intro paragraph here. Heading two.” Which if you’re doing structured, it will do it for you anyways. But then, often times in tech writing you go, “In this chapter, we discuss blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” Or training. Tell them what you’re going to tell them, tell them what you told them. Well what they’re doing is they’re jumping right to the middle section and just telling them, and letting the AI write the intro, and then write the summary. How much time does that save? I don’t know. There’s some cost savings there, sure. Yeah, of course. Maybe it saves you 10 minutes, and 10 minutes times 500 paragraphs times 300 days, yeah.
Jack:
A downside in that same example. The trade show I was just at yesterday, another vendor, it was for a particular programming language. In this programming language, they had business analysts that talked to the customer and asked them standard questions. “What’s this supposed to do? How many people access it? If it’s a loan, what do you base the login ID on?” They basically created an AI, with a face that smiles and verbalizes, that any time of day, 24 hours a day, could start that program and said, “Okay, let’s run through what I need.” It basically replaced that business analyst with the AI who could populate 80% of what’s needed so the BA can then fill in the rest. Or, verify what was done. I have mixed feelings on this. If I was paying a BA, great. That just saved 80% of my bill rate. On the other hand, if I’m billing hourly, that just lost 80% of my profit.
Jack:
Two, the guy was based out of France. I go, “Well, here’s the problem with an AI. You can’t see me going like this, I’m not sure.” He goes, “We’re not allowed to. In France, we’re not allowed to read expressions or anything, other than the words you give us.” It’s like going to McDonald’s now, and at the airport. I check myself in, I order my own food. At some point, we’re going to lose that human touch. I’m an extrovert. I recharge my batteries being around people. Where some people are just the opposite. I know people who wear tshirts that say, “Don’t talk to me.” They are quite happy interacting with an AI so they don’t have to people at all. Did I answer your question?
Larry:
Well, that also is reminding me that so much of this is about … My fondest hope is that a lot of what you’re describing will generate a return to the desire for more human connection and human stuff.
Larry:
Hey, Jack, I can’t believe it. We’re coming up close to time already. Before we wrap up, is there anything last? Anything you want to revisit from the conversation, or just make sure we share before we wrap up?
Jack:
Yeah. I saw at another conference, a session on how to use AI to write your resume for a job posting. It said, “Feed it the job posting. Have it come out with the top 10 points. Then, make sure those top 10 points are in your resume.” It took 35 minutes to do this exercise. I said, “I could have done that in five.”
Jack:
Now, I can always tell as a recruiter when someone else wrote your resume. I can tell when a resume writer, when you hired someone to write your resume, I can always tell. Because a resume, to me, is the first example of your writing ability. That should be communication from you to me. By using an AI to write that for you, I no longer feel that you’re accurately representing your writing ability. Unless, however, the job says, “Must have experience using AI,” in your job. To which you could then say, in your cover letter, “I used AI to write this resume, and this is what I did.” All right, fine. Remember, a resume is just a vehicle that match what the reader is looking for, and that’s all it is. If they’re looking for someone who can write with AI, then by golly, you need to show that you can write with AI.
Jack:
If you’re working in a financial services firm, they would not let AI touch anything if their life depended on it. The last thing they’re going to want to know is someone who’s really good with AI, because you may try to use AI at your job, which they absolutely forbid. In that case, don’t write your resume with AI. It’s just tech writing 101, know thy audience.
Larry:
Boy, it’s communication 101, too. As you talk about it, I’m reminded, because other areas of the content world have been lately, like the conversation design world. It’s so clear, from that world, that having an authentic voice … We’re still in that uncanny valley with these tools, that it’s clear that they’re not actual humans. Why would you want to have one of those machines write your resume? I think your point is well taken there.
Jack:
At an STC event, we did a leadership thing where it was just an icebreaker for leaders. They gave us all flavored lollypops. We had to do a two-minute presentation on why our flavor was best. One of the groups, there was no rules against this, used an AI to write their paragraph. Then we got to vote on which one we liked best. The AI written one came in last.
Larry:
Interesting. Yeah. Well hey, speaking of last, the very last thing I want to ask you before we wrap up. What’s the best way for folks to connect with you if they want to follow you online or reach out?
Jack:
As a recruiter, the first place I look when I have a job opening is my first degree connections on LinkedIn. Which truthfully, the first place I look are the people who’ve already sent me their resumes. In the liner notes, there will be a link to my LinkedIn profile?
Larry:
Yes.
Jack:
I’m the only Jack Molisani on LinkedIn. My email address is jackmolisani@prospringsstaffing.com. If you want to come to a LavaCon, we have a discount code. LSPODCAST will get you $200 off in-person tuition.
Larry:
Great. I’ll put that in the show notes as well, so folks can use it. Yeah, thanks. That’s coming up October 27th, I think, through the 30th?
Jack:
27th through 30, in Portland, Oregon.
Larry:
Yes, beautiful Portland.
Jack:
We’re going to have therapy llamas.
Larry:
Okay, therapy llamas.
Jack:
I never told you? Okay, how many seconds do we have left?
Larry:
We have to finish with therapy llamas, yes.
Jack:
Okay. I have to keep remember that I am not my target audience. Every year, we end the conference with Andrea Ames is doing a design thinking workshop and we break people into five personas. New attendee, returning attendee, blah blah. One year, we did speed networking. All you had to go, sit at a table, go, “Hi, I’m Jack from ProSpring. Hi, I’m Jack from ProSpring. Hi, I’m Jack from ProSpring,” and go around the table. Then 10 minutes later, go to a new table and do the same thing. How hard could this be?
Jack:
Well, apparently I so traumatized the introverts, making them talk to people, that what they wanted was a quiet room with puppies. Ever since then, we bring in therapy dogs during lunch. So the introverts can pet a puppy, and recharge their introvert batteries. Somewhere during COVID, we brought a live llama because we could. We did a llama contest, Name That Llama, which is now Larry the No Drama Content Llama, and has become the unofficial mascot of LavaCon. We actually found live llamas to bring into LavaCon San Diego. We’re going to do the same thing in Portland.
Larry:
Nice.
Jack:
There’s going to be a Chinese Dragon parade, and therapy llamas.
Larry:
Excellent. I love that the llama is named Larry. I’ll have to get acquainted when I’m there.
Jack:
Yes, for sure.
Larry:
Well, thank you so much-
Jack:
See any resemblance?
Larry:
Well, we’ll find out in Portland. I will go side-by-side comparison.
Jack:
Oh, Larry, always a pleasure.
Larry:
Likewise. Thanks so much, Jack.
