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Dave Birss has had a busy 2023.
Since developing his first AI course for LinkedIn Learning early in the year, he has produced five more courses and has become the learning platform’s most popular AI instructor.
We talked about:
- his experimental approach to teaching AI
- how he helps companies understand the true benefits of AI
- the importance of using AI to augment people’s skills rather than just to try and save money
- the elements of his AI manifesto
- use AI responsibly
- be ethical
- support your employees
- assign leaders
- keep learning
- always add a human layer to AI output
- the importance of critically consuming advice from anyone who proclaims to be an AI expert
- the importance of companies learning for themselves because there are few reliable consultants available now
- how unlocking the true benefits of AI can change companies’ perspectives and help them see new opportunities
- the crucial task of understanding people and addressing their needs as AI is adopted
- his observation that it “cannot be AI or human, which is the way that a lot of companies are seeing it, it’s got to be AI plus human”
- how the adoption of AI supports his point of view that generalists have an equally important role in the modern workforce as specialists
Dave’s bio
Dave Birss combines the analytical mind of an AI geek with the butterfly mind of a former advertising creative director. This helps him make the ever-changing world of AI approachable, relevant, and occasionally entertaining.
At the start of 2023, he launched his first LinkedIn Learning course on Generative AI. Since then, he’s released another five courses, all of which have gained fantastic ratings and reviews. In July LinkedIn announced that he’s now the most popoular AI instructor on the platform.
But Dave isn’t just about online courses. He’s also a globe-trotting educator and public speaker, helping companies and individuals get more value out of Generative AI.
He’s also a best-selling author with several books on creativity and innovation. And a former broadcaster and film-maker.
As a sought-after keynote speaker, Dave speaks about AI, innovation, and creative thinking with a blend of science and dad-jokes.
He’s a Scotsman who lives in London with his Haitian-American wife and two delightfully confused children.
Connect with Dave online
Video
Here’s the video version of our conversation:
Podcast intro transcript
This is the Content and AI podcast, episode number 9. Over the past year, we’ve all been getting up to speed on AI. Over that time span, Dave Birss has become the most popular AI instructor on LinkedIn Learning. Dave would be the first to tell you that he’s not an expert on artificial intelligence. But he’s a very experienced technology professional who has witnessed several major earlier tech revolutions, and he’s an experienced teacher and consultant, so he brings a very pragmatic approach to incorporating AI in your work life.
Interview transcript
Larry:
Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode number nine of the Content and AI podcast. I am really delighted today to welcome to the show Dave Birss. Dave is an educator, author, and consultant currently focusing on AI and AI education. He’s the most popular AI instructor at LinkedIn Learning. Welcome, Dave. It’s great to have you here. Tell the folks a little bit more about what’s going on these days.
Dave:
Thanks, Larry. Yeah, I’ve been creating courses on AI this year, really. And I can’t really call myself an AI expert. I guess I’m an enthusiast and I am an experimenter. I guess I do research to find out what works best, and then I share that knowledge with people.
Dave:
If you told me a year ago that I was going to be doing AI as my main thing, I wouldn’t have believed you because OpenAI only released ChatGPT on, I think it was the 30th of November last year, so it’s still less than a year old. And when they launched it, I just threw myself in, absorbed as much as I could, created some frameworks, easy ways of being able to teach people, and then I just released these as courses.
Dave:
I’ve got now six courses on the platform. Just released another one last week. And I’m about to release some courses on my own website as well. Yes, that’s my life these days, doing courses and then helping companies get onto their AI journey in the best possible way because I think a lot of them have got the wrong attitude. They’re not looking at AI in the right way.
Larry:
Yeah, interesting. Tell me more about that, because I think we all have opinions about AI. What are you discovering?
Dave:
Well, of course, companies, as you know, they will tend to have, “Here’s our quarterly target, here’s our quarterly goal. Can we make more money and spend less money in this quarter?” That’s what they do. It feels as if that’s the responsibility of a company is to do that.
Dave:
Now, if that’s your attitude towards AI and that you’re only interested in using it to save money, really, it’s all about productivity, then you’re really missing out on 90% of the benefits of AI. Because the real benefit of AI is not just to help you do less work and do work faster, it’s to help you do better work. And when you do better work, that gives you an advantage in the marketplace. If you think that you’ve got this line across here, that this is the profit and loss of a company, you can only nibble away at that by starting to replace humans and tasks by AI. And what you do in return is you do a deal with the devil, which is you embrace the fact that AI is fantastic at adequacy, which means that you’re going to get stuff that’s all right, maybe just about average that you’re going to get from AI. And if you’re replacing humans by AI, you will save money, but you get adequacy in return.
Dave:
When you use AI, on the other hand, to make humans more capable of doing phenomenal work, of stretching further than they were able to stretch before, then really, the sky’s the limit. At that point, you’re gaining profit rather than trying to save cost. And the problem is that most companies are so focused on saving costs and this incremental growth, they’re missing out on what is the real potential of embedding AI into your company, into your system, which is to do better work, to reach higher, achieve more.
Larry:
I love the way you’re contextualizing that because going from that… I love that they’re fantastic at adequacy. And it’s like-
Dave:
They excel at it.
Larry:
They excel at adequacy. But the real potential here is in unleashing way more human potential on this work. And this speaks to the need for… Because that quarterly focus of enterprises, it’s just notorious in any number of circumstances. Have you had any success or do you see ways that companies might get past that and start to think more strategically about how to embed the benefits of AI in their orgs?
Dave:
Well, when I talk to companies about it, they get it. But there are so many companies that their form of motivation for people in senior leadership is keep cutting costs. We’re only focused on this quarter. And that kind of short-termism, I think, will really come round and bite you in the butt when it comes to business.
Dave:
One of the things that I’ve been doing from conversations with businesses over the last, well, this year since I’ve really been doing this AI thing, is that I’ve developed a manifesto that I’ll shortly be releasing. Let me see if I can find my cursor on here and I can maybe bring up my manifesto. There we go. This manifesto is all about helping companies understand what they need to do to embrace AI properly.
Dave:
Zoom is doing funny things for me here. If I go back here, I can then share what I’ve got. I’ve created this manifesto, and I’ll quickly take you through some of the points in the manifesto. I think that this first thing is what I was talking about, is that it’s important that we use AI to augment people’s skills rather than just to try and save money. I think that that’s the main focus for companies that want to get real success and value out of AI.
Dave:
Obviously using data responsibly is an important thing to do. And that’s something you have to communicate to your staff, what we mean by using data responsibly. You’ve got to be ethical because you’ve got to be guided by your head or your heart. Companies are used to being guided by laws, but we don’t have those laws here yet. There will be lots of court cases that is going to generate some laws over the next few years, but you do not want to become a legal precedent. Because of that, you should make sure that you’re thinking properly and guided by your heart and ethical responsibilities when you’re making your decisions.
Dave:
You need to support your employees. That means give them training, give them guidance, let them know. If there are employees that are worried about this, you need to give them emotional support as well to help them on this journey. I think it’s important of leaders. You need a butt to kick and you need a back to slap. And it’s important to keep learning because this stuff’s changing all the time.
Dave:
Just in the last few days, OpenAI has pretty much exploded as a company internally when Sam Altman was fired. And it looked as if he might be joining again, but now he’s joining Microsoft. And everything’s changing so fast. And then two weeks ago at OpenAI’s Dev Day, they introduced so many things that really, really changed the whole world of AI. And then you’ve got some-
Larry:
I’ve got to interject real quickly. We’re recording this on November 20th. And by the time this airs in a couple of weeks, it’ll be completely out of date. But I think the elements of your manifesto are timeless. Yeah, sorry.
Dave:
Yeah. Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And that’s the thing we’ve seen over the weekend, it’s… LinkedIn, it’s been all over LinkedIn what’s happening at AI. And it’s people commenting too early on stuff just because they want to be seen to have an opinion. And it is felt like a bunch of people talking through an episode of the Housewives of Beverly Hills where it’s actually stuff that’s really not much value to what they’re saying, but they’re just commenting on what’s happening.
Larry:
Well, one thing-
Dave:
Yeah, and the last point there-
Larry:
Oh yeah, go ahead. Yeah.
Dave:
… was adding a human layer. I think it’s really important we understand that the output from AI is not the finished product. You need to verify it, first of all, validate it, and then you need to add that sprinkling of human dust over the top to just bring it up to make sure it’s on tone, that it’s got the kind of structure you’re happy with, the pace, everything like that. At that point, we’re going from becoming just raw writers to becoming editors, so the role of content creators in that sense is changing. I’m very interested in what happens there. But there we go, that’s my manifesto and my rant there, Larry. We can get back over-
Larry:
No, I love it. You’ve had a year to develop this, and it looks great. And one of the things we talked about before we went on the air, and I love this, is you and I are both, we’re both in this space because we’re genuinely curious people. And I love the way you contextualize yourself as just an enthusiastic experimenter who’s out there playing with this stuff and sharing what you’ve discovered. But one of the other things that’s out there that’s inevitable in an environment like we’re in right now is the BS merchants and the snake oil salesmen and the misinformation and disinformation that’s out there. Does this bother you?
Dave:
Oh, yeah.
Larry:
Tell me about your approach to that. How do you help people get the right information?
Dave:
I think anyone that says that they’re an expert in generative AI is somebody that you should completely disregard right away. I don’t believe there are experts in this. It’s changing too quickly. It’s not been around long enough. And I see myself very much as an experimenter; I’m just trying new stuff and then sharing what I learn.
Dave:
And there’s so many people who are trying to position themselves out there. Because I’ve been around a few years and was there at the birth of the internet in the early ’90s, we’ve seen periods where opportunists have really come on board in business trying to pretend that they’re experts. And I’ve seen it again and again. I saw it when the internet started to make an impact on the marketing industry, because that’s my background is advertising. And I’ve seen it when social media came in in the early 2000s. And there was just those land grabbers coming in, going, “Yeah, yeah, we can do SEO, or we can do social, or we can do some virtual stuff, we could do VR kind of stuff.” These people, most of them do not have enough expertise. They do not have the talent. They’re people who might have done a little bit of a course or tried something.
Dave:
But the way that you learn is by doing. The way that you learn is by experimenting. And if these companies cannot show you the experiments they’ve done, if these people cannot show you the experiments they’ve done to actually back up what they’re saying, they’re not real experts in this. And I saw it again and again. It frustrates me and it worries me because there’s lots of companies that are desperate for some kind of knowledge. And if somebody positions themself as an expert, that is enough for them to be hired.
Dave:
I look at life in this way: I’m always on the edge of a bell curve. But when you look at the bell curve of adoption for technology and AI… And you can look at this as the early adopter theory that we got from the 1940s I think it was when that first came around. And you’ve got the people who are the tech evangelist douchebags who are the ones who are just constantly saying, “Yeah, it’s a game changer. It’s amazing. This changes everything.” And then over here, you’ve got the naysayers are saying, “This is going to destroy the world. This is terrible.” You’ve got total resistance on one end, and then you’ve got people who are diving in far too enthusiastically on the other end, and I don’t think that either of these places are a good place to be.
Dave:
These techno douchebags, we’ve seen them with things like Bitcoin trying to evangelize about cryptocurrency. And I think we need to have a certain amount of skepticism. We need to apply intelligence to this stuff. And if we don’t have that kind of skepticism and we dive in too quickly to stuff, then we’re not applying enough intelligence as to what’s the value that we have? What’s our real purpose? How does this help us amplify our purpose? How does this give us an advantage in the marketplace and help us create a better product for people? And there’s so many people who are just diving in without these reasonable questions being asked. That really-
Larry:
Yeah, you mentioned a minute ago-
Dave:
… really worries me.
Larry:
Yeah. And you mentioned a minute ago one of the things I’m inferring from this is show your work. Show me some experiments you’ve done and show me how you can make this work. Have you discovered other ways to help people? Because like you said, there’s going to always be those extremes like the… But where most of us are in the middle and we have to balance this, it’s quite the balancing act too, especially with the… I think the amplitude of that bell curve is way different now even than… Because I was around for the start of the web and saw social media and the cloud and all this stuff come along. And you’re right about those dynamics, but it seems like it’s amped way up now. We need to all be hypercritical consumers of this stuff. Besides looking for folks who’ve done their homework and have actually experiment, can show their work and show stuff they’ve done, are there other, I don’t know, attributes, characteristics to look for in folks that you’re looking to learn from?
Dave:
Yeah, but I think that for companies, if they’re interested in this at all, they have to learn themselves. It’s the kind of thing, if I was going out to buy a tractor, I’ve got no idea what makes a good tractor. Now, I could go along to somebody who says that they’re an expert in selling tractors and trust them, and I might get a good tractor, but also, they might sell me a pup. I don’t know. And that’s the whole thing, that you need to understand yourself what you’re buying and what your criteria are. If you don’t have enough of a base knowledge to understand this, you don’t have enough base knowledge to buy from someone.
Dave:
I think that companies need to educate themselves as well. You can’t just completely rely on other people. Yeah, we’ll bring in an expert, we’ll bring in a consultant. The people who are responsible for that in the business need to educate themselves too. And there’s lots of good educational resources out there. It doesn’t have to be just trying to absorb everything from the news. As a LinkedIn learning instructor, I know there’s lots of other courses from other folk that are really, really helpful, that are really good. And it doesn’t take you too long to bring your own level of understanding up, but it does… AI should change your perspective of business, it should change your perspective of how businesses operate and what the opportunities are for business. If it hasn’t done that, then you’ve not actually got to understand it properly. And-
Larry:
How do you cultivate your imagination around that because there’s so much it can do. And do you feel like there’s an imbalance in the features or the benefits that are shared broadly and that this is why companies have to dive in deep and see what’s really going to be the benefit for them? Is that-
Dave:
Yeah. I’m frustrated with the way that a lot of AI tools market themselves. Save time and money is the main thing they talk about. And of course, that’s what companies want to hear, but that is the wrong way of applying these tools. I think that if that is your sole approach to this, I think you aren’t going to get the true benefits out of it. As I said, saving money and saving time is not what’s going to unlock the real proper potential of this technology, which is actually about taking your humans and making them superhuman. And that is what’s missing from a lot of that communication.
Dave:
And we see it from the big companies. The big companies are talking about AI as productivity. And I get frustrated with that because I think that that’s missing out. And I’ve spoken to some of these big people, big companies that, “We’re getting AI from…” I’ve spoken to them, and I’ve said that I don’t like their approach. And I want to help them educate people in how we can use this to make humans capable of more and opening up opportunities for business, but they just want to sell the speed and time saving.
Larry:
This is like a crackpot thing of… Not a crackpot, I think a well-founded thing. But so much of modern management practice, including strategy and decision making around adoption of things like AI, is still driven by 20th century values and practices, like old Frederick Taylor ergonomic optimization and productivity enhancement and stuff. Whereas the modern world of Dan Pink and his book, Drive, he talks about what actually motivates modern workers in the cognitive economy; and it’s a whole different set of things. I think we talked before we went on the air that you felt like this was exaggerating some dynamics that were already in play. Is that one of them,-
Dave:
Yeah.
Larry:
… the need to think differently about how you manage your business?
Dave:
No, you’ve absolutely nailed it. And I love Dan Pink’s book. I think when we’re talking about autonomy and mastery and things like that, if we are to outsource a lot of that stuff that gives people satisfaction, that gives them dopamine boosts in their job, if we were to outsource that to AI and trust AI to do that and end up making humans more of a machine than the machines are, then we’re going to be in real problems in organizations because we aren’t machines. We need these neurochemical boosts to keep us going. If we don’t have purpose, that’s when we start to get anxiety and depression and all sorts of things like that seeping into people’s lives. Work has an important role, not just in helping people earn money, not just in helping the company go further, but in helping people feel as if they’re doing something that’s contributing. And that’s a really important part to humanity.
Dave:
One of my fears is that AI will erode that and that… We’ve got a lot of laziness in people. When we look at organizations, and every single year Gallup does a workplace survey to look at how engaged people are in the workplace, and in the UK it’s awful. You’ve got three categories. You’ve got engaged, you’ve got disengaged, and you’ve got actively disengaged. Actively disengaged are people who are trying to sabotage the company. They’re actually going out of their way to waste company resources as a great big middle finger to the man. You’ve got people who are engaged. In the UK, 10% of the workforce are engaged. That means that they’re trying harder, they’re going extra mile to help the business go further. Then you’ve got 76% of people are disengaged, which leaves 14% of people actively disengaged, which means there are more people trying to sabotage the business than there are people going the extra mile to push the business forward. And everyone else is just, “I’m just doing what I’m told.”
Dave:
Now, that is quite disturbing, but when we look then at how this kind of group of people might use AI, well, if all the companies are saying, “Hey, use this, we can give that job to AI,” then if people start outsourcing their stuff, they’re making themselves irrelevant. Not only that, they’re taking away the satisfaction of completion. That’s one of the things that gives us the dopamine kick. It means that if people are giving too much stuff away to AI, it’s not just the situation of job loss, which there will be a certain amount of job loss and job migration, but what it does is for people who are using it within their role, it could completely sap what it means to be a human and result in all sorts of anxiety and suboptimal mental situations. And I really worry about that because most people, if they’re actively disengaged or disengaged are going to use AI to be lazy rather than the people who are engaged are going to want to use it to help them achieve more.
Larry:
Yeah, as you’re talking, I’m wondering if there’s something like the opposite of anthropomorphization. We’re anthropomorphizing. It’s like we’re turning people into computers instead of unleashing. I think people are starting to think of super humans as computers. And it’s like, no, humans have unique capabilities, we’re just going to delegate.
Larry:
I’m thinking, for example, of… I’ve talked to a number of engineers who feel like their productivity has genuinely increased 10X because of gen AI technologies, which enables them to do more different stuff. And they’re insanely incredibly satisfied human beings. They’re the creme de la creme, the top of the heap in coding already. But does that make sense? That notion that there’s some kind of a mindset shift that needs to occur to think differently about how this can enable true super humans?
Dave:
Yeah, there is a mind shift that we need to do, yes, but we should’ve done it decades ago. It’s just bringing that to light. For example, with the rise of accountants running companies, as we’ve seen over the last 30 years, the people who are running businesses, there’s more accountants doing it than ever before. Now, their way of measuring things obviously is profit and finance and stuff like that. And the view that people who are accountants tend to have of workforce is they see them as work units. Each person is a work unit of equal value.
Dave:
Now, that completely misses the point of humans because, as you know, you’re talking about the fact that there’s developers you know who are really talented, you know that not all developers are really talented. You know that not all content writers are really talented. You know that there’s some people there who are exceptional. And those exceptional people are the ones that help drive a business forward. If you see everyone as being this equal value work unit, you miss out on that. And those people will leave because they are not being recognized and not getting the recognition that they deserve for the work that they do.
Dave:
And I’ve seen this in businesses. I’ve been in business long enough to see this in companies. Where people are treated as equal work units, the talented people leave. AI is not equal to a human. AI is a phenomenal tool. It cannot be AI or human, which is the way that a lot of companies are seeing it, it’s got to be AI plus human, which helps us go so much further. And if we can use AI to help humans achieve more, the satisfaction the human will get will be so much more.
Dave:
And as you can see, I’m like a broken record on the fact that humans… It needs to be AI plus humans, and humans can achieve more than they’ve ever achieved before. And it feels as if everything that I say will be about that because it means so much to me. And it’s the one thing that I am really concerned about a lot of companies that I’ve been seeing integrating AI, that it’s not about that, it’s about do things faster and cheaper. Let’s outsource the difficult stuff. And yeah, we won’t need as many people in this department. That’s a dangerous place to go.
Larry:
No, you couldn’t have known this because we just met last week, but my other podcast and this one both, it’s turning into it’s just a truism that we talk about technology and process and procedures and systems, but it’s always about people, it’s always about people. And in terms of what you were just saying too about this is a problem we should have fixed 20 years ago or identified and began to think about, that’s like one of those things you were talking about when this AI just really heightens these things. Yeah, one other thing I want to address real quickly too is you said that some people really do stand out, and I just wonder how much undiscovered talent might be revealed if we could just figure out how to use AI better. Does that make sense?
Dave:
Yes, absolutely. I had a debate many years ago with one of the big luminaries of the advertising industry: Was the future about specialists or generalists. And he firmly believed that it was about specialists. He had built up a huge advertising agency that was winning lots of awards, and it was all about specialists. When it came to writers, he wanted people who specialized in television and people who specialized in poster and people. He was really going down the specialist route.
Dave:
And I’ve got to say he is a legend, and I like him and I respect him and we still chat, but I’m very much about the generalist approach. And the one thing about having a generalist approach and understanding lots of different things is that AI lets you take that amount of knowledge that just makes you dangerous and helps you actually do something with it. Because the AI can augment your limited understanding with far deeper understanding and expertise. For example, I speak fluent HTML and CSS, I can hand write a website, but JavaScript I’ve never really been able to get to grips with. I speak pigeon JavaScript, I can order a beer and ask where the toilets are in JavaScript, but that’s as much as I can do, really. I can hack pieces of JavaScript that have already been written.
Dave:
But I had ideas for web tools that I wanted to create so I thought I would try this out a few months ago. And I went to ChatGPT, and I said, “Could you build me this tool?” And I described it. And it’s important. Your prompt is a brief. You have to be really thorough in your prompt writing because that is your brief. You need to tell it everything you want. I wrote this big, long description, this big, long prompt saying, “This is what I want from a website.” And it built me a prototype in under a minute. It gave me the full code. And I plugged that into my code interpreter program on my computer and it worked. This prototype worked like that. It’s like what? I’d been trying for years off and on to make this happen, and just like that the AI built the bones of this website. And then over the space of about four or five hours, I then refined it and styled it and all the rest and put it out there.
Dave:
Now, that to me is extraordinary because it took my incredibly limited ability… The fact that I can just about read the JavaScript and mainly understand it, but I can’t speak it, it did the speaking for me. Now I’m regularly putting pages off. I’m probably creating a web tool, one web tool a week at the moment.
Dave:
And I’m absolutely blown away with… If I’m doing a talk… For example, I was speaking in Eastern Europe a couple of weeks ago, and I decided that, actually, I wanted just a little tool that I could use for the audience so that I could see what the audience felt of something. And I thought, well, what if I just create a little tool that is a picture of a robot? An emoji of a robot comes up on screen and an emoji of a person comes up on screen, and the person just taps it to go robot or human, and I get people to vote. And I say, “What do you think? Was this created by robot or human?” Then they hold the phone up. And I can look out to the audience and I can see, right, it’s mainly blue so it’s robot. Right, it’s mainly yellow, so it’s human. I can see that on the phones. I built that tool in less than 15 minutes the day before I did that talk. And that would’ve been something that if I was coding that myself, that would’ve taken me more than half a day. But it’s not the fact that it’s about the speed, it’s the fact that it was able to do it better than I could. And that was the bit that really is important to me.
Larry:
That’s right. I remember 30 years ago the web was unfolding and stuff, just imagining things like that. And we’re finally there. And it just jumped over the whole no-code, low-code thing. It’s just like, just write it down and I’ll build it for you. It’s great.
Hey, Dave, I can’t believe it, we’re coming up close to time. These conversations always go way too fast. But before we wrap up, is there anything last, anything that you want to revisit from the conversation or just want to make sure we talk about before we close?
Dave:
I’ve reiterated the one thing again and again here, and I don’t want to talk about that, but I want to say that if you are somebody who has not jumped on the AI bandwagon yet or you’re a company that’s not embraced AI yet, don’t stress about it because in this adoption cycle, when you look at early adopters to people who are laggers, when we look at stats at the moment, we are still in… We’ve just passed the early adopter phase. There’s less than 50% of people have properly got involved in AI and embraced it as part of what they do. Less than 50% of people. There is still time. But don’t dilly-dally; get involved. And there’s plenty of opportunities to learn out there.
Dave:
And you don’t have to go in and make all the mistakes yourself. There’s education tools out there, not just myself, but there’s lots of fantastic places that you can go to learn this. Take whatever advice and assistance you can to help you on your journey. There’s still time, but you really should be doing it; the earlier the better. And don’t take on all the heavy lifting yourself, take the advice that’s out there.
Larry:
It’s a team sport, like everything else we’re doing these days. Well, hey, one very last thing, Dave, what’s the best way for folks to connect you if they want to follow you online or stay in touch?
Dave:
Yeah. Let’s see. If I go along here… Oh, that’s not working. Oh, there we go. There’s my name. You need to look at my name and spell it correctly. And you can find me on LinkedIn. And you can find my courses on LinkedIn Learning as well. And also, if you just take my name and add .com after it, davebirss.com, then you’ll get my website. And you can sign up. If you’re interested in AI, you can sign up for a free prompt in your inbox every week on my website, davebirss.com. Just make sure you spell it correctly because the second name there, if you spell that incorrectly, you can get some not safe for work stuff.
Larry:
Good to know. I’ll link to that in the show notes as well. Thank you so much, Dave. I really enjoyed the conversation.
Dave:
Thank you so much, Larry.
